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Darwin Payne Puts the Boot to some Guy Named Harvey J. Graff

Posted by Greg Jaynes 
Darwin Payne Puts the Boot to some Guy Named Harvey J. Graff
May 01, 2009 12:13AM
I was just reading the new Legacies (Spring 09). Nicely done as always.

In this issue Darwin Payne reviewed a book entitled "The Dallas Myth" and
subtitled "The making and unmaking of an American city".

It's a very entertaining review. I have not read the book. Judging by the
examples Payne cited then proceeded to disembowel with actual facts,
the author seems to have a problem with Dallas and it's "would be historians".
I can't help but laugh as I write this.

Respectfully,
Greg Jaynes
Re: Darwin Payne Puts the Boot to some Guy Named Harvey J. Graff
May 03, 2009 01:39AM
Good to see something from you again, Greg!

I did a Google on the book and found nothing but very liberal reviews that basically were saying this guy in Ohio was on the spot in his analysis of Dallas. It was so tiresome reading all that leftist stuff that I had to get another brew.

I don't get Legends, so have no idea how Darwin Payne blistered Graff and couldn't find anything on the internet about Darwin's response to/rebuttal of Graff.

It's amazing that so many of the liberals... especially, college profs on the East and West coasts and at liberal universities... seem to think they know all about Texas, the Southern States and the "flyover" States. Most of them have never set foot for any period of time in any of the places they write about and end up selling demeaning books or articles to the fools that believe every word.

I'd really enjoy seeing Darwin Payne's comments, as I'm sure he used factual data to refute the pap by Graff.

Fred
Re: Darwin Payne Puts the Boot to some Guy Named Harvey J. Graff
May 03, 2009 03:44PM
One thing is sure : BOB WILLS is still the King. !
Re: Darwin Payne Puts the Boot to some Guy Named Harvey J. Graff
May 04, 2009 09:46AM
I found this website:
[english.osu.edu]

I invited Mr. Graff to come here and discuss it with us.

Respectfully,
Greg Jaynes
Re: Darwin Payne Puts the Boot to some Guy Named Harvey J. Graff
May 04, 2009 10:00AM
graff.40@osu.edu

The email address on that website bounced.


It says my service mail.com is blacklisted. Anyone else want to
email the good professor?


<graff.40@osu.edu>: host defang11.it.ohio-state.edu[128.146.216.18] said: 554
5.7.1 Domain mail.com is blacklisted (in reply to RCPT TO command)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reporting-MTA: dns; outbound1-1.us4.outblaze.com
X-Postfix-Queue-ID: 5C5907E23B8
X-Postfix-Sender: rfc822; jaynes@mail.com
Arrival-Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 16:44:28 +0000 (GMT)

Final-Recipient: rfc822; graff.40@osu.edu
Action: failed
Status: 5.7.1
Remote-MTA: dns; defang11.it.ohio-state.edu
Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 554 5.7.1 Domain mail.com is blacklisted


Respectfully,
Greg Jaynes
Re: The Real Reason JNB chose his townsite
May 06, 2009 04:20PM
It should be obvious.

He must have had a premonition that the Woodall Rodgers freeway
was going to be built and laid out Houston St so it could run
underneath and folks could walk down to the American Airlines
center.

I'm sure that is it.

Respectfully,
Greg Jaynes
Re: Darwin Payne Puts the Boot to some Guy Named Harvey J. Graff
May 06, 2009 04:42PM
I took several classes with Harvey Graff when he taught at UTD ... and loved studying with him smiling smiley He is an expert on the subject of the history of world literacy, very encouraging of his students and a most unique individual. I can't imagine that this Darwin fellow could light a candle to Professor Graff winking smiley
Re: Darwin Payne Puts the Boot to some Guy Named Harvey J. Graff
May 06, 2009 05:20PM
Oh, now this is interesting.

That "Darwin fellow" wrote the book on Big D you know. He has illustrated it's history.
That you have such a high opinion of Harvey Graff is good enough for me though.
I'm certain he is worthwhile. I'm sure you would also hold Darwin Payne in high regard.

Why don't you invite Mr. Graff to join us here for a pow wow? I'd love to discuss John
Neely Bryan with him.

Respectfully,
Greg Jaynes
Re: Darwin Payne Puts the Boot to some Guy Named Harvey J. Graff
May 07, 2009 12:58AM
Many of us followed and loved your study of JNB on the message board. You did an excellent research of him and maybe you should share again for the newcomers, Greg.
Re: Darwin Payne Puts the Boot to some Guy Named Harvey J. Graff
May 07, 2009 06:14PM
So there's a Big-D-history Bible? Cool winking smiley Nice to know the canon's closed.

Doctor Graff is major-league to my minor in terms of hanging out and stuff (stuff being History). If there's a wrestling match going on between one-of-the-few-men-I've-met-who-carries-a-purse and the "Darwin fellow," though, I'll be sure to turn out (and wipe the loser's brow).

I'd forgotten how factual we are around here tongue sticking out smiley


Greg Jaynes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh, now this is interesting.
>
> That "Darwin fellow" wrote the book on Big D you
> know. He has illustrated it's history.
> That you have such a high opinion of Harvey Graff
> is good enough for me though.
> I'm certain he is worthwhile. I'm sure you would
> also hold Darwin Payne in high regard.
>
> Why don't you invite Mr. Graff to join us here for
> a pow wow? I'd love to discuss John
> Neely Bryan with him.
>
> Respectfully,
> Greg Jaynes
Re: Darwin Payne Puts the Boot to some Guy Named Harvey J. Graff
May 07, 2009 09:24PM
Rose (Holly?)

If history is approached rationally, then it cannot be a closed canon.
Interpretations based on inference or deduction are never harmed by
new information. But just as established interpretations are always
open to challenge, any new information is open to scrutiny.

A person offering new information or a new interpretation should
expect to be questioned. In fact they should appreciate it.

Now, I have not read Harvey Graff's book. I have only read Darwin
Payne's review of it. But if Mr. Graff's interpretations are on solid
ground, then he should have no problem answering.

I take it you have not read "The Dallas Myth -The Making and Unmaking
of an American City. Neither have you read Darwin Payne's review.
So, you really aren't in a position to answer for Mr. Graff other than
as a character witness. If you know him, then please invite him to
visit with us. That's why we are here, right?

Respectfully,
Greg Jaynes
Re: Darwin Payne Puts the Boot to some Guy Named Harvey J. Graff
May 08, 2009 01:10PM
C'est moi.

You mentioned "some guy named Harvey Graff" and I just thought I'd chime in and say that he is well-respected as a scholar and that I had enjoyed and learned from studying with him. In fact, he pointed me (and the rest of our class, at the time) toward some research on the history of the family in the early American South ~ for which I will always be greatful and still treasure.

I'm happy to learn that you do not believe in a closed canon concerning the past. Yet, history is more than a debate-session; a list of facts and assumptions in columns to be scutinized. How close a 'rational' approach can truly bring us to the past, I do question. More important is to understand how those whom one is studying perceived the world and their places in it (imho).

And no, I have read neither Darwin Payne's book nor his review. In all honesty, I am more of a 'country historian' if even that can be said of me. But I would be interested to read an online debate between Mr. Payne and Dr. Graff if you're able get one going.

Sincerely,

Holly

[people.cohums.ohio-state.edu]





Greg Jaynes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rose (Holly?)
>
> If history is approached rationally, then it
> cannot be a closed canon.
> Interpretations based on inference or deduction
> are never harmed by
> new information. But just as established
> interpretations are always
> open to challenge, any new information is open to
> scrutiny.
>
> A person offering new information or a new
> interpretation should
> expect to be questioned. In fact they should
> appreciate it.
>
> Now, I have not read Harvey Graff's book. I have
> only read Darwin
> Payne's review of it. But if Mr. Graff's
> interpretations are on solid
> ground, then he should have no problem answering.
>
> I take it you have not read "The Dallas Myth -The
> Making and Unmaking
> of an American City. Neither have you read Darwin
> Payne's review.
> So, you really aren't in a position to answer for
> Mr. Graff other than
> as a character witness. If you know him, then
> please invite him to
> visit with us. That's why we are here, right?
>
> Respectfully,
> Greg Jaynes
Re: Darwin Payne Puts the Boot to some Guy Named Harvey J. Graff
May 08, 2009 01:45PM
Sorry, Greg ~ you wrote: "some Guy Named Harvey J. Graff."

I'm going to try to find a copy of his book, and look forward to reading it (from the country winking smiley ):

[www.upress.umn.edu]

Thanks for bringing it to attention.
Re: Darwin Payne Puts the Boot to some Guy Named Harvey J. Graff
May 11, 2009 09:31AM
Greg / Holly -

It is unlikely there will be a Graff - Payne debate on this forum but that should not preclude the rest of us from debating their written words.

I do have Graff's current book and another written by him when he was at UTD plus Patricia Hill's "Dallas - The Making of a Modern City." Hill was a former student and Graff gives high credit to her own work.

I have not read the Payne Legacies review - all prior editions of the journal are available online but Spring 2009 has not yet been uploaded. If you could provide some more details on Payne's comments I would be glad to excerpt those from Graff.

M C
Re: Darwin Payne Puts the Boot to some Guy Named Harvey J. Graff
May 14, 2009 07:24PM
I agree with MC. You won't see a discussion/debate between Graff and Payne. not their type of forum
Re: Darwin Payne Puts the Boot to some Guy Named Harvey J. Graff
May 14, 2009 11:12PM
Well now you can't expect Darwin Payne to get down in the mud with the likes of us.
But his review of Mr. Graff's book would have fit right in. It's a fact checking, debunking delight.
It's got pacing too! It's not typical Darwin Payne. I see him doing a lot of dispassionate vertical
market history. Like that Dresser Industries book or Plains to Planes about DFW or the lawyer
essay or the museum work. But this is a review, not a presentation of history. He is firing back
at Graff's facts and his conclusions. Since he is unlikely to post here, we'll just have to enjoy it
in Legacies. Like MC says, we can talk about it.

MC, do you have any comments on Graff's book yet? Where did you get it?

Respectfully,
Greg Jaynes
Holly, Greg I have met Darwin He knows his stuff. after all he taught at SMU for a long time . He know his stuff and he lives here and I am with you Greg . Darwin is the man and own most of his books. Holly I don't know if you have Met Greg. I have and knows his Stuff. Take my word for it. Greg should be Teaching Dallas History as well.

Greg I hope I can meet up with you again It has been to long man.

Scott
Re: Darwin Payne Puts the Boot to some Guy Named Harvey J. Graff
May 30, 2009 01:22AM
I also have met Greg Jaynes and even purchased some historical documents from him just before he moved to the Gulf Coast to pursue his boating and research of South Texas. Greg is extremely knowledgable about the history of events and places, including Civil War times (Pea Ridge), JFK killing, early settlement of the Gulf Coast of Texas and much more. Greg is one of the good guys!

I know that Greg lost his boat in a hurricane, so would like to hear what has transpired for him since then.
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